Talk:Ertuğrul

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Comment[edit]

Just curious: Why do I only find Dutch web sites when googling for Ertogrül? Is there an alternative spelling? -- JeLuF 20:47 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

His name is spelled "Ertuğrul" in modern Turkish.

Ertuğrul's father was named Gündüz Alp. Süleyman was attributed in later centuries seeking a claim to the inheritence of Süleyman Şah bin Qutalmış, founder of the Selçuq-Rûm dynasty. Ref. Oğuznâme, Tevârih-i Âl-i Osman. Compare with Uzunçarşılı, İ.H

I moved the above here since it wasn't really encyclopedic. I have renamed the page Ertugrul but I do not understand your claim that his father wasn't Süleyman. According to this site Ertuğrul had a son named Gündüz Alp, but his father was Süleyman. Süleyman Ibn Kutalmish died in 1086 in Anatolia, while Süleyman, the father of Ertuğrul, fled Central Asia from the Mongol onslaught in the 1220s. –The Phoenix 08:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The previous text must be replaced as it is recently proved by a historical document that the father of Ertugrul Gazi was Gunduz Alp. It can be confirmed at Islam Ansiklopedisi (Islamic Encyclopedia) published by Turkiye Diyanet Vakfi Islam Arastirmalari Merkezi which is an official scientific institute. Ryu701 18:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The name in Osmanlici[edit]

The name in Osmanlici seems mispelled.

Ship[edit]

The text on the ship should be removed to its own article. Kablammo 23:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Now done, courtesy of Wwoods. The link to the new page is in this article. Kablammo 11:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Dates born/death are confusing[edit]

need clarity. --68.94.164.169 (talk) 09:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Born in 1190 Death in 1281 Qasim23khan (talk) 11:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

We have a decent source for death (circa), what's your source for birthyear? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:24, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

File:Ertugrul Gazi.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Haplogroup[edit]

Because so many people today claim to be a Prince of the Ottoman Dynasty, and were therefore entitled to inherit, The true male members of the House of Osman, currently twenty-four Princes now in the Line of succession to the former Ottoman throne, and their cousin, the Amuca Kabilesi who are descendants of Gündüz Bey the older brother of Osman I, tested their Y-DNA.

Genetic history of the Turkish people, shows that the common ancestor Ertuğrul of the Kayı tribe, belonged to haplogroup: R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilek2 (talkcontribs) 17:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Infobox and semi-legendary people[edit]

Jytdog and Alephb and anyone interested, can I have your input on what should be included in the infobox? Since the facts surrounding this person are disputable, it´s a problem that the infobox looks the way it does. Removing it might be a solution, but we should keep the coin. The articles about his wife and mother have similar problems. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:38, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

we have a ref for his death which is kind of important and i guess recorded since that his when his son took over (here); so that is factual enough. Not his birth date, in fact one of the footnotes says that date is not known. So that should come out. Jytdog (talk) 14:03, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
And nobody seems to doubt Osman was his son (Jr is said to have had coins made) so he can stay too. How about father, mother, spouse and burial place? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, I don't know Ottoman history very well, but I see this in the lead: "While his historicity is proven by coins minted by Osman I which identify Ertuğrul as the name of his father, nothing else is known for certain about his life or activities." Unless something's very wrong with that sentence, I'd think the rest should come out. Of course, I'd be open to hearing from someone who knows the subject better in case I'm missing some crucial detail here. Alephb (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Come to think of it, it would be nice to have a picture of one of those coins. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
This [1] may very well be it. Of course, we can´t use it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Gündüz Alp[edit]

Phso2, Teavannaa, CLCStudent, anyone interested.

There's been some back-and-forth editing about this [2], the subjects father, lately. The source is clear that Gündüz Alp is a possibility, but this WP-article also claims (currently without ref) that Gündüz Alp is the name of one of his sons, which is a little confusing. Gündüz Alp has one ref that may support this, but I can't read Turkish and have no idea if it's a good source or not. Any good ideas on how to improve the article?

Also, we need to improve the lead, there's stuff in it that's not in the body, some moving may be a solution. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Almost all major contemporary historians cite Gündüz Alp as Ertugrul's father and say the connection to Suleyman Shah has no basis; Different Ottoman chronicles say different things....the earliest only name Osman as Ertugrul's son and don't mention who his other children were. It's completely plausible that Ertugrul had a son Gündüz Alp who was named AFTER Ertugrul's father. There is a lot of conflicting info. Below is a pic of the honorary tomb of Gündüz Alp, with the clear listing as Osman's "dedesi" (grandfather) and Ertugrul's "babasi" (father), so that's the "official" narrative of the nation it seems. The coin that was found stating the same should be sufficient, I think? I'll look into more sources as soon as I have time! (Picture: https://www.tarihinicinden.com/2019/04/ertugrul-beyin-babasi-gunduzalp.html) Teavannaa (talk) 01:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. It would be nice if there are any free images of these coins we could use in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Another thing is that the cite for birthdate: unknown seems to be about Osman, not E. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
If someone has access to this book [3] it may have something useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:08, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello Gråbergs Gråa Sång! The coins minted in Osman I's era do not show the relation of Ertuğrul to Gündüz Alp. There are only names written on the coins as "Osman Ertuğrul Gündüz". So this name "Gunduz" can be of his son and brother of Osman I. I think this should be added to the content 'Biography':

"However, a website on numismatics mentions that the graving only names Ertugrul and makes no mention of his father".(source)

IAmAtHome (talk) 07:21, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

While Aaj News may to some extent be a WP:RS (and they hint at some interesting sources), IMO "a website on numismatics" is not something we should use/include. Per [4] it appears WP:USERG. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
BeshogurTeavannaa, you may want to peek at the Aaj News article as well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Anjum bhai?[edit]

I have no idea what it is, so I can't tell if it belongs or not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:05, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Aşıkpaşazade[edit]

Lambiam and other interested helpful people. I found something interesting on Quora [5]:

"However, I will give you the relevant parts about Ertuğrul Gazi from Aşıkpaşazade’s Tevârihi Âl-i Osman: The History Of the House Of Osman. This 15th Century history book is the earliest source about Ertuğrul Gazi to the best of my knowledge:

“These three brothers returned whence they had come. They went back to the Plains of Pasin and the Valley of Sürmeli. Ertuğrul did not return with his brothers but remained where he was with four hundred nomads. His two brothers returned to their homeland. Ertuğrul remained at that place for a long time. He went to summer pastures and he went to winter pastures.

“… Ertuğrul sent his son Saru Yatı to Sultan Alaüddin [of the Sultanate of Rum]. He said, “Let him direct us to a home.” Sultan Alaüddin gave them Söğüt between Karacahisar and Bilecik. He gave them Domaniç Beli and Ermeni Beli as pastures. They went there from Ankara and entered this province. After many a year from their arrival, Ertuğrul Gazi passed away.” [1]

That is about it."

Now, Quora is not a WP:RS, but this looks like a good addition to me. Does someone has access to an English translation of Aşıkpaşazade's book (or even better, a historybook that comments on Ertuğrul in it), or a Turkish one they can translate from for inclusion in the article? If there's a good source for this being "earliest source about Ertuğrul" that's excellent, if not we'll do without. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Last will[edit]

Not necessarily a bad inclusion, but I'd like to know when it was written and by whom. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Can't hurt to ask[edit]

Beshogur, [6] disputed, sure, but what decent sources do you have that even suggests it? An infobox is generally supposed to contain uncontroversial and cited stuff from the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm in favor to remove it but people keep adding it, and since there are source used in article Halime Hatun, I added "disputed" to avoid the [citation needed] tag. Beshogur (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Beshogur What source in that article supports that HH was his spouse? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Nevermind, found one, will add. I'm still curious when this name appeared in sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

If deleted, we can go back to File:TM-2001-500manat-Ärtogrul Gazy-b.png. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Date of birth[edit]

I saw many sources where the birth date of Ertugrul Gazi is 1188,1191, 1198. I have a question why the article about Ertugrul and Halime Khatun is protected from editing.https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/ertugrul-gazi Başar, 1995; Kozan; Imber, 1987; İnalcık,Ansiklopedisi, 2007.https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BB

İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 487.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 489.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 488.
Başar, 1995; İnalcık,Ansiklopedisi, 2007.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 486.Эртугрул Гази (talk) 15:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


If you have WP:Reliable sources that mentions possible birthyears, that's interesting if you can reference it (and if you found 3 different ones, "unknown" is a pretty fair description). The islamansiklopedisi doesn't mention a birthyear afaict, and Wikipedias of any language are not reliable sources. The articles have been protected from editing because of high levels of WP:Disruptive editing, for example adding stuff without a good reference, or removing well referenced stuff. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree. It's pretty much unknown, even Osman's birth date is shown "middle of 13th century" by Ottoman historians which lived 100 years later. Beshogur (talk) 17:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020[edit]

This information is wrong according to turkish history so would like to make changes 86.29.116.204 (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Rummskartoffel (talk) 11:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Boat[edit]

IAmAtHome, on what page [7] does it say the boat was named after him? Good find, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Reason?[edit]

Hello Beshogur, I don't know what's reason of reverting my last edit? Ertuğrul is commonly known as Ertuğrul Gazi. I was just adding this in the topic sentence. There are plenty of sources available:[8][9][10][11].

IAmAtHome (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

As I understand it, it's not an "or" but a MOS:HONORIFIC. I don't really mind adding (often with the added title Gazi) to the lead, but since the body says pretty much that, I don't think it's necessary either. Then again, stuff like sir, dame, count etc are almost always in the lead of such people (it's not a perfect comparison). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)